How to Stop People Pleasing, Subjugating, and Saying Yes When You Mean No, Part 2/2 [Podcast Transcript]

Title: How to Stop People Pleasing, Subjugating, and Saying Yes When You Mean No Part 2/2

Podcast Date: October 18, 2024

Listen Here: 

Description

In this episode of the "Compared to Who?" podcast, host Heather Creekmore dives into the challenging topic of people pleasing and subjugation with special guest Joyce Campbell. Together, they unpack how incessantly saying "yes" while wanting to say "no" can lead to losing one's identity and sense of self. Joyce shares insights from her book, "Dare to Say No: Stop Saying Yes When You Really Mean No," and offers practical guidance for breaking free from the patterns of subjugation, whether in personal relationships or professional settings.

Heather and Joyce discuss personal anecdotes and strategies to help listeners navigate the discomfort of saying no, all from a biblical perspective that emphasizes the importance of aligning with the truth of scripture. If you struggle with being overly compliant, people pleasing, poor boundaries, or feeling subjugated, this episode provides valuable encouragement and tools for stepping into a healthier you!

Key Topics:

• Understanding the root of people pleasing or subjugation
  
  
• The impact of subjugation on mental and emotional health
  
  
• Practical steps to begin saying "no" kindly and respectfully
  
  
• The reactive stage: learning to balance newfound assertiveness
  
  
• Developing a true sense of identity away from compliance
  
  
• How faith can aid in overcoming the fears of saying "no"
  
  

Resources Mentioned:

• Joyce Campbell's book: "Dare to Say No: Stop Saying Yes When You Really Mean No"
  
  
• Get the book on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3ZUldRt (Amazon affiliate link)
  
  
• Joyce Campbell's website:
  
  joycelcampbell.com
  
  

Connect with Us: improvebodyimage.com

Outline

00:00 Intro & A Personal Story

06:03 Becoming Less Agreeable

11:52 Mastering Our “No”

21:06 Feeling Safe To Say No

Heather Creekmore [00:00:05]:

What do you do if you are always giving in to other people's demands? If perhaps you say yes so often when you mean no, you don't even know who you are or what you like anymore. Today, we're gonna tackle this subject from a Christian perspective. I'm Heather Creekmore. You're listening to the Compared to Who podcast. If you're brand new here, we're so glad you're here. I'm talking to my friend, Joyce Campbell. We're talking about subjugation, which is the clinical word for people pleasing. And friend, today, we're gonna tell you what to do if you've been people pleasing and wanna stop.

Heather Creekmore [00:00:44]:

If you've been subjugated, if you've been saying yes when you mean to say no, how can you start giving your best yes instead of every yes? You're gonna love where we go today. Thanks for listening. Let's get right to it. Welcome to Compare to Who, the podcast to help you make peace with your body so you can savor God's rest and feel his love. If you're tired of fighting body image the world's way, compared to you is the show for you. You've likely heard lots of talk about loving your body, but my goal is different. Striving to fall in love with stretch marks and cellulite is a little silly to me. Instead, I want to encourage you and remind you with the truth of scripture that you are seen, you are known, and you are loved no matter what your size or shape.

Heather Creekmore [00:01:30]:

Here, the pressure is off. If you're looking for real talk, biblical encouragement, and regular reminders that God loves you and you're not alone, you've come to the right place. I hope you enjoy today's show, and, hey, tell a friend about it. Joyce Campbell, thanks so much for coming back and joining us today.

Joyce Campbell [00:01:52]:

My pleasure. I'm glad to be here.

Heather Creekmore [00:01:54]:

So last time you were on the show, we talked a little bit about all the different problems, subjugation, people pleasing, always saying yes when we mean no can cause from physical problems to just exploding with anger when we can't take it anymore, all of those things. So if you haven't listened to that episode yet, go back and listen to that one first. But today, I'm gonna kinda turn the corner. I feel like, and let me just, maybe I'll start with this story. It might be a little embarrassing for me to share this. But my listeners know that I don't mind going there. But this summer, we finally did vacation the way that I've wanted to do vacation.

Heather Creekmore [00:02:45]:

And it was a wonderful vacation. And it wasn't the fault of my husband that we hadn't done it this way. It was my own wrestling with some subjugation issues with family of origin. I'll just say that generically. And, you know, I've told Eric, my husband, I don't know, probably 7 times since we've been back about 2 months. Like, that was the best vacation of my life. Like, I needed to be doing that for the last 17 years. Like, what would my life look like if I had vacationed like that for the last 17 years? 

And Joyce, it's kind of embarrassing, but this is a situation where I have felt like I couldn't say no. I had to do it the way it was expected of me. It had to be a certain way. And it still felt very scary when I announced how we were going to be doing it. I think my blood pressure was way high. It was so high for, like, the week I was thinking about doing it.

Heather Creekmore [00:03:49]:

And then I finally did it. It started to come down just a little bit. It was like, this is having a toll on me. And it's interesting how so many of us just fall into the pattern of saying yes and being agreeable because it's really scary and hard to think about not doing that. Right? And go ahead. Yeah.

Joyce Campbell [00:04:18]:

I was going to say, it might be similar to what Tom and I have done or did over quite a few years, and that was always going to one or the other family of origin. And it was imposed by us. It wasn't imposed by the families. And there was this thought of which is, you know, has value. We don't know how long they'll be with us.

Joyce Campbell [00:04:52]:

So we need to do that. But over time, I wound up in the same place. And, now that our children are adults, it was so hard, but they have been to different countries during Christmas.

Joyce Campbell [00:05:16]:

And I knew from all the experience being with other people with clients that I had to be willing and to freely give. So it took some prayer, and there was that lurch in my stomach when I first heard about it. But our kids are not responsible for our well-being, and we do have friends. And so we spent some good time with friends during those times. But it is hard to change our mindset, and yet it's so freeing to choose to do that. It may take prayer.

Becoming Less Agreeable

Joyce Campbell [00:06:04]:

It may take just a lot of talk with our spouse, maybe some counseling in there. But it's so wonderful to be able to let them go and bless them in their choices.

Heather Creekmore [00:06:25]:

Yeah. Yeah. I love that you have that perspective on that one. Mine aren't old enough to really spend holidays on their own yet, but that's coming very soon. Well, for the women or the woman listening today, it was like, yeah. Yeah. I hear you saying that I don't have to always, you know, be agreeable.

Heather Creekmore [00:06:52]:

I hear you saying that I can kinda step out from under this, but, like, practically. Like, where does she start with that? Because it's not just that first conversation of, like, no. I'm not gonna do this. I think there's work that needs to be done first.

Joyce Campbell [00:07:06]:

Absolutely. And in my book, there are numerous case studies that you'll be able to learn from. And, yes, it depends on the situation. If you're going to be working on not subjugating in the workplace, for example, often my clients and I will do role playing. I might be the boss, and we'll come up with different statements or questions that they can pull from their backpack, so to speak, and that are appropriate and safe for both parties. So that's really helpful for anyone. And then if it has to do with family relations, I often suggest that they actually speak to whomever is involved and say, you know, I have had a real wake up call here. And I realized I didn't know I didn't even know the word, but I have been subjugating all my life.

And it's taken a toll on me. I'm really angry about it. I resent giving in and giving up to so many people. And so I'm going to go about changing this. I wanna go through a metamorphosis here. And so if I happen to say no about something. For example, if you ask me, would you like to go to x titled whatever movie? I might say, well, I don't really think so this time. And it's true. They might be upset because we've always complied. But to know that you are able to have your own opinions and preferences.

Joyce Campbell [00:09:22]:

And so, again, you can tell the family or this family member, I really hope that you'll be patient with me and understand what I'm about in this matter. And so I'm open to questions anytime. And if you need to talk with me about something that I've said no to, I'm more than happy to do that. And so then you've paved the way that they aren't gonna be blindsided, you know, with your no. But we do have to be really careful because there usually is a reactive stage where when you've learned that you can say no, you may start saying no to everything. And that's good. We should applaud it in a way, because you're coming out of this. And at the same time, we want the pendulum to swing back into balance. Where you're not abusing it. And I remember one client we were working on coming out of subjugation, and her husband asked her if he could come into a session. And she said, well, sure. And, so he did. And she was confused because she didn't know why he would wanna be there.

Joyce Campbell [00:10:59]:

And, so he started by saying something like, well, I'm really happy that Jane is coming out of this situation. At the same time, I feel like I'm being shut down right and left. And I had already told Jane about the reactive stage, but, evidently, she either forgot about it or just wasn't aware that she was saying no so often. And so he was really pleased that he came after we talked through it, and I reminded Jane about the stage. And, she didn't even realize she was doing it, but she was abusing her no. So Yeah. So it worked out great.

Joyce Campbell [00:11:49]:

They both knew and understood. 

Mastering Our “No”

Heather Creekmore [00:11:52]:

Yeah. Well, I mean, I get that. I mean, I can't really pinpoint it, but I do know within the last decade for sure, you know, saying no to some things or, you know, turning down opportunities that at one point I would have, you know, thought I had to say yes. When you have been controlled for a long time, I think there's a little buzz.

Joyce Campbell [00:12:19]:

Absolutely. 

Heather Creekmore [00:12:20]:

A little high, like, oh, that felt good. Okay. And then I don't know. Do you turn into a toddler where it's like, no! No! No!

Joyce Campbell [00:12:26]:

That's the reactive state.

Heather Creekmore [00:12:31]:

Right. I may have walked through that.

Joyce Campbell [00:12:33]:

And I do go into, in the book, how to go about it. You know? You don't just automatically start saying no. You do it in a kind, respectful way, and you don't always have to give your reason. That's for sure. But if you want to, you can say, well, that just won't work for me. You don't have to go into this huge long explanation like I used to.

Heather Creekmore [00:13:05]:

I think we need to stay there for just a second, Joyce, because I know my people are over explainers. I mean, so the the former pastor's wife of our church. I don't know if, do you know Cindy? Yes. Okay. I mean, Cindy is the master of, you know, I'm sorry. That just won't work for me. You know? I mean, she does that. She has taught me so much. But I'm the one that's like, oh, no. Well, we have something that day. And then I get asked for another day and it's, oh, we have something. And then, like, by the 3rd or 4th time, it's like, I'm out of excuses.

Heather Creekmore [00:13:40]:

Yeah. And so that's part of this. Right?

Joyce Campbell [00:13:47]:

Absolutely.

Heather Creekmore [00:13:48]:

It’s feeling like it is enough for me to say, no. I'm sorry. I can't do that. Period. End of sentence. What have you seen? Fill that a little bit more. Why won't we just do that? What are we afraid of?

Joyce Campbell [00:14:01]:

Well, again, abandonment, rejection, retaliation, because some people do have that air of retaliation. Well, if you don't do this for me, there's gonna be payback. Well, in that case, they may not be a friend at all. And at some point, there may have to be a going of separate ways, because well, I remember when I was asked to be on a certain committee, to organize a retreat, and I was a vice chairman. And the chairman, I didn't know really well, but I knew her a bit. And, I was actually, this is a long time ago, but I was afraid to tell her that, we were gonna meet on Wednesday, I think, in the evening, and I needed to tell her that I couldn't be there a specific specific Wednesday because it was my mother in law's birthday, and we had always planned to take her out to dinner.

Joyce Campbell [00:15:13]:

But I got the courage to speak up, And she said, oh, no problem. That'll be just fine. I'll fill you in and blah blah blah. Well, I got to know her so much better, and she respects the word no and is very big on boundaries. So she was a very kind person that I happened to have that situation to deal with. But, again, we're not responsible for their reaction.

Joyce Campbell [00:15:54]:

And if it is a reaction rather than a response, very often, there's no reasoning with the person. And so sometimes we do have to burn bridges. And that's okay because they were not concerned about your well-being, your health, your mental health, your emotional health, physical health. They just wanted you to be compliant. Give in and give up. All the time, period.

Healing For The Compliant Wife

Heather Creekmore [00:16:28]:

You have a couple stories in your book about marriages. So marriage, little different in terms of just you're not gonna be my friend anymore. After having been subjugated to you. Right. How do you counsel, I mean, in my case, my audience is women. You know, how do you counsel the woman who is maybe listening to this and, like, woah. I've been just the compliant wife for decades. Where does she start?

Joyce Campbell [00:16:58]:

Well, first of all, she needs to learn more about subjugation. So she really has an understanding of it and what it's doing to her emotionally, physically, mentally. And then, again, we would deal with the unique situations that she feels or knows that she's subjugating in. And we would come up with conversations, ways to approach a conversation. And, again, if the spouse is not willing, willingness is the key. If they're not willing to truly listen and hear, then they have no respect for the wife.

Joyce Campbell [00:17:49]:

And the doormat syndrome is in place. And so I suggest the first, well, one of the first things is to ask the spouse, are you willing to come to counseling with me? And if they are, if he is, then fantastic. And, then things can be worked through. Perhaps he doesn't even realize that this is the case. He might not even know.

Joyce Campbell [00:18:27]:

He may just think, oh, she's so easygoing. You know? That's no problem. But there are cases in the book where it's revealed that there is no other option but to separate. And often, when separation occurs, the spouse wakes up. Oh, this is a serious issue. Maybe I should consider going to counseling with her.

Joyce Campbell [00:19:06]:

And if he doesn't and she's suffering, then divorce may have to be because it's abuse. It's actually horrible abuse. And that's not okay. And I hate that. I don't like divorce at all. And I'm absolutely for working through whatever needs to be worked through to restore that marriage.

Heather Creekmore [00:19:39]:

Yeah. So is there a scale? Like, I'm just a little controlled to, like, fully like, is there you know? Because I don't want someone to, you know, be like, oh, my husband got mad when I said no last night. That means I'm subjugated. Then, you know, I think we probably do tend to, you know, go black or white on some of these things.

Joyce Campbell [00:20:06]:

There is a little survey, we can call it, in the book that lists a number of symptoms. And I believe I say that if you have 10 out of this many in the survey, then most likely, you are subjugating. But that's a good way to start out. And, also, to ask a friend, a good friend that is trustworthy and is interested in your well-being. Because they may have observed and say, oh my goodness. I am so glad that your eyes are opening. This is not okay.

Heather Creekmore [00:20:49]:

Yeah. That's good. That's good. Okay. So I wanna just kinda loop back as we close-up today. So when we transition from saying yes to saying no, how do we feel safe doing that?

Feeling Safe To Say No

Heather Creekmore [00:21:06]:

Because isn't that, like, even in our brains. Right? You know, we're so used to being in the limbic system, fight or flight. You know? I know I have to, you know, say this because that's the only way I'm safe. How do we feel safe?

Joyce Campbell [00:21:22]:

Well, first of all, if we've explained to the person or persons, then they, again, will not be blindsided. And we need to say no in a very kind and respectful way. It's not this, no. I won't do it. It's to be very respectful and bathed in prayer and then submitted. That's one way that we submit as wives by speaking the truth. The truth about subjugation is that if we say yes when we really mean no, we are lying. And that's not acceptable.

Heather Creekmore [00:22:10]:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was also thinking, like, it's very difficult to have an identity. Even an identity you know, like, as Christians, our identity should be in Christ. Right? But it's very difficult to know who you are if you're always just compliant, if you're always people pleasing. You know? I mean, I don't know if you remember this movie. It's an old movie. What's it called? Runaway Bride. Do you remember that movie? Julia Roberts? And there's a part of this movie I think I might have even mentioned on the podcast before because it just stuck out to me. There's a part of this movie where, so she's with 3 different men that she almost marries in this movie, but she runs away from each. And Richard Gere comes in and interviews these men she almost married because he's writing a story about it. And he asks each of these men how she liked her eggs cooked.

Heather Creekmore [00:23:04]:

Oh, okay. And each man says, you know, oh, she likes them over easy just like me. She likes them scrambled just like me. Right? And so you can see that her problem is she becomes like whomever she is with, and then ultimately she runs away because she can't marry that person because she's not actually herself. Right? But developing a strong I mean, you know, you've you've walked with lots of clients through this. Like, is there a place to start even on that front with figuring out who you are?

Joyce Campbell [00:23:40]:

Well, that's a good point because when you do walk in chronic subjugation, you don't know who you are because you don't know what your true opinion is on any given thing. You don't know what your preferences are. Oh, I just go along with a group because it's easier that way, and everybody loves me. So it's, you know you're safe because, 1, you've been validated by a professional, if you read the book. And 2, if you're in counseling, you've been validated and also taught, as we've said, not to go into the reactive stage. And if you are, to get out of it and get back into balance. So if you know you're doing what's right, if you know your thoughts and your speech is congruent, that you're telling the truth, then you have to know that you're safe.

Heather Creekmore [00:24:45]:

Yeah. Yeah. Safe only in the Lord. Right? Sometimes. But absolutely safe. That's really good. That's really helpful. Anything we've missed, Joyce? Anything you wanna leave the listeners with?

Joyce Campbell [00:25:03]:

Just thinking about being safe. If you're not safe, then, again, it's the other person. That has an issue. I remember, long ago, one of my sister in laws, Christian, joined a ladies group in her hometown, and it turned out not to be a safe place because she was of the sanguine temperament. She was very bubbly and happy and, you know, just didn't meet a stranger. They did not like that, and they wanted her to become a melancholy, a quiet, subjugated melancholy that was very compliant with their thoughts and preferences.

Joyce Campbell [00:25:59]:

And this was a Christian group. I don't know if I said that or not. But yeah.

Heather Creekmore [00:26:05]:

Yeah. And so did she stop going to the group? Don't leave us hanging.

Joyce Campbell [00:26:10]:

She did. She found others.

Heather Creekmore [00:26:13]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Good to be aware of. Well, Joyce, thanks so much for being on the show and sharing this topic with us. Your book is called dare to say no, stop saying yes when you really mean no. I'll hold it up for the YouTube audience. Where can we get a hold of this book?

Joyce Campbell [00:26:31]:

Well, it's on Amazon. It's available also in all kinds of bookstores. It's available in audio on Amazon

Heather Creekmore [00:26:41]:

Wonderful.

Joyce Campbell [00:26:42]:

ITunes, Audible. So Wonderful. Number sources.

Heather Creekmore [00:26:47]:

And, Joyce, if someone, are you still practicing, or are you retired? 

Joyce Campbell [00:26:52]:

A bit. A bit. But all my credentials are from Colorado. 

Heather Creekmore [00:26:59]:

So you're not seeing clients here then? 

Joyce Campbell [00:27:03]:

No. I could consult. But

Heather Creekmore [00:27:06]:

1. Okay. Great. Well and your website is https://www.joycelcampbell.com/ 

Joyce Campbell [00:27:11]:

Yes. And people can ask questions through that too. 

Heather Creekmore [00:27:15]:

Great. Great. I'll put that link in the show notes. Well, Joyce, thanks so much for being on the podcast today.

Joyce Campbell [00:27:20]:

I really enjoyed being with you.

Heather Creekmore [00:27:22]:

And thank you for watching or listening today. I hope something today has helped you stop comparing and start living. Bye bye.