Help! Why Does My Christian Husband Look at Porn? Part 1/2 [Podcast Transcript]

Title: Help! Why Does My Christian Husband Look at Porn? Part 1/2

Podcast Date: February 18, 2025

Listen Here: 

Description

Rosie Makinney of Fight For Love Ministries joins Heather today for a candid conversation about lust and pornography issues and how they affect marriages and a woman's body image issues. If you've ever believed that your husband would stop looking (or would have never looked) at porn if only you looked better, today you'll hear this lie dispelled with science and biblical truth. Rosie has helped thousands of women come to a better understanding of their man's lust problems, and she'll encourage you if you've ever felt gaslighted or blamed for his struggles. 

This is part one of a two part conversation.

Listen to Heather's first interview with Rosie where she shares her story here: https://omny.fm/shows/compared-to-who/what-to-do-when-your-husband-is-looking-at-porn

Learn more about Compared to Who? at https://www.improvebodyimage.com 

Transcript

Disclaimer: This transcript is AI-generated and has not been edited for accuracy or clarity.

Heather Creekmore [00:00:02]:

Life audio. Hey, friend. Heather Creekmore here. I'm glad you're listening to the Compare To podcast today. Today, we're going to a hard place that affects a lot of marriages, and that is this topic of lust and specifically pornography. And today, my friend Rosie McKinney is joining me. She is the founder of Fight for Love Ministries. She and her husband, Mark, work in this space full time, helping women and men who've had pornography struggles impact their marriage.

Heather Creekmore [00:00:35]:

And so today, Rosie and I are just getting really real about this question I get all the time, which is a question from women who feel like it's their fault. That if they looked better, if they looked different, their husband wouldn't have turned to pornography. That if they had never gained the baby weight or gone through menopause or any of the things, right, then they could have kept his attention, and he wouldn't have started looking at porn. And so today, Rosie's just gonna share with you some straight gospel truth. In the next part of this episode, next week, we're gonna get into kinda how do you heal from this a little bit. Like, what do you do if you just feel crushed? How do you start the healing process? So I hope you'll come back for the second part of this interview next time. But today, Rosie just kinda gets into the nitty gritty of where do porn issues come from, and how do I understand them better. So Rosie was on the show before, several years ago, an episode called His Porn Problem is Not About You.

Heather Creekmore [00:01:33]:

So I hope you go check that out. You can hear her full story there. But for today, there's a lot of good stuff here. Share with a friend, if you know someone that's maybe walking through this, this may really encourage her. Rosie is also gonna tell you about all of her resources at fightforloveministries.org where you can find her podcast and other things to help you if this is part of your story right now. And if it is, I just want you to hear loud and clear that there's hope. There's great hope for your marriage. There's hope for your own heart that you can heal, that you can recover, that you can feel whole, lovable, and maybe even beautiful again.

Heather Creekmore [00:02:11]:

So listen to today's interview. I can't wait to hear what you think about it. Hey. Brand new to the show. Woo. You picked a doozy to jump in on. Go to improvebodyimage.com. You can learn all about the ministry of compared to who and how we help women who struggle with body image enhancement issues.

Heather Creekmore [00:02:25]:

Alright. Improve body image up off. All women have at some level, and there's probably this whole layer of, like, purity culture and all those things we could probably dig into with it too. But the question of our heart is, is my husband looking at porn, looking at other women, maybe even cheating on me because of the way I look. And so that's where we're going today. I am so glad that you were here for it. I'm glad Rosie's here for it. Rosie is is a big deal.

Heather Creekmore [00:03:11]:

And you were on the show, I think it's probably been a couple years now.

Rosie Makinney [00:03:16]:

Yes. It Yes. It has.

Heather Creekmore [00:03:18]:

We didn't know each other nearly as well then. Rosie and I hang out monthly in a mastermind group now. But back then, you shared your testimony. You shared your whole story of really how you came to work on these issues because, like, let's face it. Talking about pornography and marital challenges in this arena all the time, like, I don't know. Is that the career path you would have chosen for yourself?

Rosie Makinney [00:03:48]:

No. I wanted to be a ballet dancer.

Heather Creekmore [00:03:49]:

There you go. So kind of the same.

Rosie Makinney [00:03:53]:

Didn't work out that way.

Heather Creekmore [00:03:55]:

Yeah. But would you give us just, like, a a the little overview? I can go back and listen to the full story. But how how'd you get here?

Rosie Makinney [00:04:02]:

Sure. First of all, lovely to see you, Heather. I'm so excited to chat with you today. Okay. In a nutshell, so this was my story. I actually did this particular journey dealing with a partner who's addicted to pornography twice, once before getting married when I wasn't a Christian, which, taught me things the hard way, that nothing you can do is going to help this, apart from set boundaries. But I didn't know that, so it all fell apart. And then I become a Christian, then I get married, and I discover very early on that my husband has the same issue.

Rosie Makinney [00:04:43]:

So at this point, I have this knee jerk. No. I'm not doing this again. I've already done this. And I just slammed down some boundaries, not knowing that that was the right thing to do, but it was just a desperate response to I cannot do this again. I know nothing works. Either you can have pornography or you can have me, but you can't have both because I know it doesn't work. Mhmm.

Rosie Makinney [00:05:08]:

So fortunately, he was, willing and wanting to be free. And so we got into recovery. And, after a lot of help and a lot of heartache and a lot of, hard work, he got free. I got healed. Marriage was I wouldn't say restored because

Heather Creekmore [00:05:29]:

there

Rosie Makinney [00:05:29]:

was nothing to really restore because it all happened so early. Mhmm. But here we are now. Mhmm. Stronger, more more connected, I think, that we probably would have been if we hadn't been down this journey because it did force us to really dig up a lot of junk that both of us were carrying coming into the relationship. Yeah. And then now we just go forward and talk about it incessantly whether people want to talk about it or not, it seems.

Heather Creekmore [00:05:56]:

Like, you even talk about it at the dinner table, you said.

Rosie Makinney [00:05:59]:

Totally. I mean, beware if you cut my hair. We're gonna go there.

Heather Creekmore [00:06:03]:

That's awesome. Well, I think maybe this I I love that you started with that little taste of hope because I think most women on this journey that have maybe I don't know. Do you call it like the crisis point? When you find when you find the porn or maybe he confessed to it, but I feel like most often it's you found it. And you find it and it's like, my you know, is this ever gonna get better? Is this feels like my marriage has crumbled? This is not what I thought it was. Like, this you know, all of those things. And I love that you started us off with some hope.

Rosie Makinney [00:06:44]:

I think it's so important because this is a hard topic if you're not used to talking about it, if you're not hearing other people talk about it. And so to front end discussions with hope is so important because then it gives people a motivation to tackle this, to do that, you know, to lift the lid and have a look at what's really down there if you know that it's worth fighting for. It really is worth fighting for, and you're not you're not fighting to get rid of the pornography. You're fighting to get rid of the the root causes underneath it, which pornography seemed like a good solution, but it wasn't. It was destructive. And so when all that starts to get unpacked and healed, you really have something really very special, which is something that you wanna share, which is why when I ask people to share their stories on the podcast or in the book or just with other you know, will you take a call from this lady? She's struggling with this. You struggled with this. Will you take a call? Inevitably, they say yes, which was a big surprise to me at the beginning.

Rosie Makinney [00:07:47]:

But it seems that my experience of, like, this is such good news on the other side of this. I I wanna share it. And and it seems to be a sort of ubiquitous experience of everybody who goes through this. So if that hasn't give you hope, I don't know what will. It's not just me saying this. It's like everybody else on the podcast. You know? There seems to be a growing movement of ministries and helpers and people coming forward and testimonies on YouTube. There's lots of them now.

Rosie Makinney [00:08:12]:

Mhmm. And, you know, I think that is the way forward when we all come into the light and start talking about this. People will go, okay. I'm willing. I'm I'm brave enough to have a look under there.

Heather Creekmore [00:08:24]:

Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, the one thing I you know, I do wanna get into, like, what's underneath. But I feel like maybe the first response that I hear women do, maybe even I did to myself. I'm trying to remember. But some of the first response is, like, gaslighting ourselves. Like, well, it is so ubiquitous. Like, oh, every man does it.

Heather Creekmore [00:08:46]:

It's not that big of a deal. Right? It's just so out there. It's not that big of a deal. Why am I bothered by it? I shouldn't be bothered by it. You know, like, we kinda try to talk ourselves into not feeling or caring. Right? I mean, what what have you seen?

Rosie Makinney [00:09:00]:

You're so right. I mean, that worldly perspective is not just something that we're, passively absorbing from media and friends and people. It is being actively pushed at us from all sorts of places, from our sort of scientific heritage to, you know, a lot of our, you know, more progressive Christianity. Like, we're pushing us towards sexual liberation is the key to personal fulfillment and happiness. So pornography sort of it's a bit of a gray line. And because we hear it from the pulpit all the time, you know, porn is every man's battle, it makes it feel like an inevitable struggle. And I just wanna say, this has the unfortunate effect of minimizing it and going, well, you know, this is inevitable. And it's like sin management is not our goal.

Rosie Makinney [00:09:57]:

It is elimination of the sin that, you know, this is a sin. We we can't just put it down as, like, a struggle that we all it's a sin and we're supposed to be fleeing sexual immorality. Yeah. And just the the sort of whitewashing of the the fact that it is sin confuses us

Heather Creekmore [00:10:14]:

Mhmm.

Rosie Makinney [00:10:15]:

And and makes us think that our job is to somehow manage it and minimize and help him not struggle when really we just need to pull it out by the roots. And the more of us who get our head around that and realize that what does god want on this? Not what the world's telling me, not what cosmopolitan, not what episodes of Friends, not what I'm hearing in my mommy groups. What does god think about this issue? And that's what you're submitting to. And once you sort of get around other women who are going, duh, like, this is this is such a straightforward issue that has been made so complicated, you start to feel that peace in your soul that you just felt as discomfort before. It's almost like this emotional intellectual dis dissonance. Like, I'm feeling that this is bad, but everybody's telling me it's not that bad, but I'm feeling like it's bad. Like, what's going on? And so if we can just come along beside you and go, you're not crazy. That's the Holy Spirit talking to you.

Rosie Makinney [00:11:09]:

Let's help you dig up this sin in your marriage because it is your problem now because when marriage two become one and he's dragging it into the bed. So, you know, you are not crazy. That's, like, number one. You are not crazy. You are right. You are listening to the holy spirit. Right? Right. Pornography is wrong.

Heather Creekmore [00:11:29]:

Yeah. That's so good. And, I mean, that's something I say all the time about some of these other issues. Right? Like, we like the word comparison. Oh, I struggle with comparison. But I don't ever hear people say, oh, I really struggle with envy and jealousy and pride. You know, it's like no one says it that comparison, it's my pet little problem. Oopsie daisies.

Heather Creekmore [00:11:52]:

You know, like, that that kind of thing. So I I really appreciate you, you know, calling a spade a spade. It is a sin problem. The messages I get, a lot of them are like, their husbands are saying things like, I wouldn't have this problem if you hadn't gained your baby weight. Right? If you looked like you did on our wedding day, then I wouldn't have this issue. Like, a lot of them are getting blamed for it. And then so that's one category. I mean, you know, that's its own kinda I don't know.

Heather Creekmore [00:12:30]:

Lucky thing. Right? And then there's this other category where women just are automatically assuming it's their fault. Right? Like, if I just looked better, he wouldn't have ever looked. Like, I just don't look good enough for him. I didn't meet the standard. And because I fell short, he had no other choice. I mean, we know that's not true, but but, you know, we convince ourselves. Right? He had no other choice but to go looking for something better than me.

Heather Creekmore [00:12:50]:

Right? But that's not what pornography is about at all, is it?

Rosie Makinney [00:12:54]:

No. Sex and pornography are not interchangeable. Sex is almost, it's a rejection of actual sex. It is it's not like, sexual junk food. Mhmm. It's like the sort of easy, quick alternative to a satisfying meal. It is poison. It really is.

Rosie Makinney [00:13:17]:

And so trying to compete with pornography is like trying to compete with cocaine. They're totally different experiences. What he is seeking and the reason he's doing it sort of on a neurobiological level is because of the chemical hit that he's getting that's released in his brain when he watches pornography. And there's no way he can get that from you because what causes that is, novelty and taboo and the the fact that there are endless choices. And also, if he started this very young, which most of them do, he's conditioned his brain to be aroused by this isolated voyeuristic experience of looking at many, many, many, many people, you know, maybe women, maybe men, I don't know, on a screen instead of a a physical sexual interaction Mhmm. With someone that he's emotionally close to. Mhmm. That's what that's what his arousal template is doing, and he is he has been chemically rewarded.

Rosie Makinney [00:14:21]:

He has a hit of dopamine. And and let me just back up a little bit. Like, how can you get a happy chemical from looking at porn? Like, how does that even work? Well, the body, is very clever in that it rewards us when we do things that further our survival. Like, I want you to keep eating highly calorific foods, and I want you to keep having sex. Mhmm. Like, so we are rewarded. We are given these, you know, this cocktail of happy chemicals when we do things that are, like, good for our survival, which, ensure in in suit ensures that we continue to do them. Pornography tricks the brain.

Rosie Makinney [00:14:58]:

It's going, ah, this will help further your survival, So here you go. And so every new partner, you get another hit. Every some every time you click on a new screen, and guys, when they're watching pornography or girls as well. I'm not gonna you know, for the purpose of this interview, we're talking mainly about male spouses, but, you know, it is a it's a problem that's affecting everybody. Let's just put it out there now. They are they're not just viewing one couple having the sort of sex that you might be having with your husband. It's not an it's not an alternative. Oh, there's a better version of my wife.

Rosie Makinney [00:15:31]:

There's a thinner, younger, more adventurous, less comp you know, less hesitant version of my wife. They are looking at lots of different things all at the same time, endlessly scrolling because every time they click on something new, something novel, something taboo, they get an extra hit. And that's what they're doing it. They're doing it for hit, and the hit is a coping mechanism. And so trying to fix it by becoming the very best version in that you perceive to be that what is lacking is not going to fix it because he is he is seeking a thrill that you simply cannot provide. Because what is happening when he is watching pornography is that he is being biologically rewarded. So guys, when they're younger, what they are doing is they are learning to cope with life. They are learning to cope with discomfort, with the hit, the the chemicals that make them feel better that only pornography provides.

Rosie Makinney [00:16:35]:

And the the, the tragic thing about when people do it when they're young is that the brain is really vulnerable to pornography. There are lots of things going on. There's the most testosterone that you'll have at any point. It's a time of restructuring, so the get the brain is deciding which bits to prioritize and which bits to let atrify. So it is this is when you are you're basically creating your sexual road map. And if pornography is in introduced at this point, it gets really, rewired so that, pornography now becomes the coping mechanism for life. And so the way out of this is not to just give them more sex, more adventurous sex, more whatever sex. It's actually to give them an alternative way of coping, which is a biblical way, which is fellowship, which is, you know, confessing our sins, which are not just lust, but which are fear and resentment and all those things getting out in the light in fellowship, Jesus working through other people, and you feeling the relief that comes from obeying the bible, which is walking in the light.

Rosie Makinney [00:17:45]:

Yeah. That's what makes you that's how you cope with life. You walk in the light with your with your peers going, I really, really can't cope with life. I can't cope with my fear. I can't cope with my anxiety. I certainly can't cope with my lust. Help me, Lord. Help me, Lord.

Rosie Makinney [00:17:59]:

And everybody who's hearing that says, thank you for sharing. We see you, and we still love you. And that is so healing and they share the same thing and you go, we're all the same. We're all sinners in need of a savior. And although that seems really simplistic, it really is that simple. It's not easy. It's not an easy thing to confess your sins. It's not an easy thing to come out of denial and actually admit that you have them.

Rosie Makinney [00:18:24]:

And you said an interesting thing earlier where you said, you know, the guys are are saying to their wives, if only you looked like such and such, if only you haven't gained the baby weight. Sometimes that's deliberate, sort of obfuscation, obvious Redirection or yeah. Manipulation. Sometimes they really believe it. They've become just as infected and distorted by worldly thinking that they actually believe their own rationalization and their own justification. And it's really hard to, you know, sort of, like, intellectually, emotionally stand against your husband when he's really convinced

Heather Creekmore [00:18:59]:

Mhmm.

Rosie Makinney [00:18:59]:

And say, you don't really believe that. You're just saying that when he really does believe that, but it doesn't mean it's the truth. It doesn't mean it's the truth because even the women who are prostituted in pornography cannot keep the attention of their partners. They are the women that people are looking at. They are the women. I'm not I don't know whether they're doing what they do on the screen, but, even they say, I can't keep my partner's attention because it's not about the relationship. It's not about, the emotional expression physically of your love for that other person. It's just about this sexual gratification that has nothing to do with emotions, connectedness.

Rosie Makinney [00:19:43]:

It's just about producing this chemical. And the more secretive, the more taboo, the bigger the thrill. Mhmm. So you're not gonna get a secret novel taboo thrill from from your wife. It it's just it just doesn't produce it, but it does produce different chemicals. It produces oxytocin and different chemicals, which are the bonding chemicals, which is how sex was designed. You know, sex can be used for good, a really good bonding, healing, life enhancing experience, but it can also be used for evil. And, once we get that in our head, it's like, okay.

Rosie Makinney [00:20:20]:

I'm not fighting my husband. I'm fighting his bondage. Mhmm. That's what I'm fighting. I'm fighting the thing that has captured him, and he and he's even fighting me. It's not like he's even fighting with me against it at the moment. I mean, hopefully, that will change or that he's willing at the moment, but he really is, captured by something else. Yeah.

Rosie Makinney [00:20:42]:

And it's hard when they're when they're going, no. I'm not captured. This is just the only problem I've got is your problem with it. Why can't you get with it? Stop being such a prude. Nobody else has a problem with it. And you're going, but but but but what? It really is a head scramble, and so half half the battle is like this comparison thing, but the other half is this sort of, like, mental manipulation that you the and the gaslighting that you have to you have to get through and go, what are we really dealing with here? And you're dealing with sort of, a demonic coping mechanism that has taken over your husband's brain. That's what you're dealing with.

Heather Creekmore [00:21:22]:

Yeah. Yeah. So you can't fight it by getting a boob job.

Rosie Makinney [00:21:27]:

You can't fight it by getting a boob job. I wish it was that simple. Not that

Heather Creekmore [00:21:30]:

I want a boob job. Not yet. You need a couple of years. But, I wish it was that simple.

Rosie Makinney [00:21:36]:

Yeah. I really do.

Heather Creekmore [00:21:37]:

Or you can't fight it by losing or whatever number of pounds. You can't fight it by getting the face lift. You can't fight it by self improvement. It's his stuff.

Rosie Makinney [00:21:49]:

I I don't know whether I've talked to you about this, Heather, about my, use of the story of the snow queen to help me get my head around what's going on here. Have I talked to this? Do you know the do you know the story, Hans Christian Andersen?

Heather Creekmore [00:22:00]:

I mean, is it what Frozen was based on? I know that's probably a really It could be. Question to ask. It could be. Frozen? I know you have boys.

Rosie Makinney [00:22:07]:

I I do have boys, and they won't watch it, but, I have watched it a long time ago. Okay. So the in the Snow Queen, there is an evil troll that makes a magic mirror. And this, this cracks and it goes throughout the world and the splinters fly into people's eyes. And when they lodge in your eye, everything you see, you see through the this lens, which makes everything ugly and distorted. And that's how I see pornography. So it's not what they're looking at that is the problem, it's the lens that's lodged in their eye Yeah. Which is part of this demonic mirror.

Rosie Makinney [00:22:45]:

It it's like the perfect analogy. Right. And, so when you're going, well, I just need to change how I how I appear, it's like the problem is in his eye. It's not your body, it's in his eye.

Heather Creekmore [00:22:56]:

And

Rosie Makinney [00:22:56]:

you really have to get your head around that because the sooner you can stop blaming yourself and trying to alter yourself, which we all do, We all do for a period of time until it doesn't until we realize it's not working.

Heather Creekmore [00:23:06]:

Mhmm.

Rosie Makinney [00:23:06]:

So don't beat yourself up if you're doing that because everybody does because that's what the world tells us. Mhmm. Have sex like a porn star. It's like, yeah. Not gonna help.

Heather Creekmore [00:23:13]:

Like Well, and when we actually let me go a place that's yuckier. That's what church has told us too. Right? I so I used to go to marriage conferences before I was married because it was part of my job. So, like, I thought I was going into marriage, like, more educated than any single person ever had been. But I remember sitting in the ballroom with a thousand other people listening to the person on stage say, hey, if he's hungry, you can't be a locked refrigerator. You know, like and and, like, and then, like, in addition to that, right, like the like, well, like, you know, which looks better on the plate, you know, like, you wanna be a gourmet meal or, you know, like, a bowl of slop. You know? Like like, those kind of illustrations where it was like, oh, the pressure's on me. If he doesn't if he doesn't feel satisfied looking at me, then I'm not being a good wife if he is you know? And it it's like the pressure's on me to keep him intrigued.

Heather Creekmore [00:24:20]:

And then when you're when you've got that church pressure that this is part of my Christian duty as a wife Yeah. To please my husband. And and I mean, I think, like, scripturally. Right? Like, of course. Like, there's some mutuality. Right? But that's not what we're talking about in the realm of porn. Right? In the realm of porn, it's not to please him by being beautiful in God's way. Right? The gentle spirit.

Heather Creekmore [00:24:49]:

Right? Like, it's none of that. It's to be beautiful in a Kardashian porn star sort of way so that I can please him or it's it's so conflated, I think.

Rosie Makinney [00:25:03]:

Yeah. Yep. You you're absolutely right. And I'm I'm so sorry you went through that. They sound horrible illustrations.

Heather Creekmore [00:25:09]:

I thought I'd heard the worst. I had a friend who conference.

Rosie Makinney [00:25:13]:

Like I I have a friend who said that they went to the pastor, and the pastor said to the wife, with a straight face, you just need to go to penis school. Yeah. That was my expression as well. Like like, that was from a pastor. And I, this stuff happens and I hear it again and again in our community. And it it it really makes you, you know, want to throw up, because it's so distorted and so damaging and so untrue. And it takes a while for them to actually because it feels like sex is their biggest greatest need. It it literally feels like that.

Rosie Makinney [00:25:44]:

And and so for them to actually realize that it this is not your greatest need. It might feel like it, but it's not. It's hugely liberating. And then they start to take responsibility for managing their needs, their unmet needs. Yeah. Not just like like, forcing their wives to meet the needs that the wives can never meet by, you know, what is it, being a a gourmet dinner?

Heather Creekmore [00:26:08]:

Mhmm. That's horrendous. Beautiful on the plate.

Rosie Makinney [00:26:11]:

It's awful, isn't it? Yeah. It's awful. It's so hard to to to counter that, but it it's it's switching responsibility onto the wife. And and I hear this again and again. It's like, guys are given a message of grace. Like, oh, this is your struggle. You know, don't be don't feel shame about this. Whereas, wives are given, all the all the truth.

Rosie Makinney [00:26:32]:

Where really, I feel like wives need grace as well as truth, and guys need truth as well as grace. Like, we need we need both sides of the gospel. You know? Yes. You are hopeless sinners, and you can't manage your loss problem any more than you can manage your comparison problem. However, you do have, you know, the the spirit of God living in you, and he will, help you overcome on an hour by hour basis if you cling to him. You can't just blame the other person and go, you can fix my sin problem.

Heather Creekmore [00:27:06]:

Hey, friend. That's only half of my fantastic discussion with Rosie McKinney from Fight for Love Ministries. I hope you'll come back for the second part of our hour long conversation. We went to some really great places, and she had some helpful encouragement. She had encouragement even if you're just dating someone who's struggling with porn, what you should do. And she talks about just really how to recover if this discovery has left you feeling crumbled, which I know it can have that effect. I've been there. So come back Tuesday for the second part of this fantastic interview, and I hope today something has helped you stop comparing and start living.

Heather Creekmore [00:27:45]:

Bye bye. The Compare To Podcast is proud to be part of the Life Audio Podcast Network, more great Christian podcast.