What's the Root of People Pleasing? Why Do I Say Yes When I Mean No? Part 1/2 [Podcast Transcript]

Title: What's the Root of People Pleasing? Why Do I Say Yes When I Mean No? Part 1/2

Podcast Date: October 16, 2024

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Description

Why do we find ourselves saying "yes" when we mean "no"? Is our people-pleasing tendency just a mild habit, or is it something more serious? In this eye-opening episode of Compared to Who? host Heather Creekmore dives deep into what Joyce Campbell--a licensed counselor and therapist--terms subjugation. Subjugation is a clinical condition where people inadvertently damage their lives by consistently putting others' wishes before their own.

Join Heather and Joyce as they navigate the complexities of subjugation, unearthing how deeply embedded negative thought patterns can start in childhood and carry into adulthood, affecting every aspect of our lives—including our mental and physical health.

Do you struggle with being the "good girl," living under the pressure to be perfect, or maintaining a facade to gain approval? This episode unpacks the layers of this condition, taking a look at how anger, resentment, and unmet expectations can wreak havoc on your spiritual, emotional, and even physical well-being.

Heather also prompts listeners to consider how self-denial—a biblically endorsed concept—differs from harmful subjugation and how to discern God's will for our lives in giving balanced responses to life’s demands.

Make sure to tune in and discover how transforming the pathways in our minds can lead to freedom and a life not defined by pleasing others but by God's purpose for us.

Related Episodes:

• Do you have healthy boundaries?
  
  
• What do I do if I feel bad about having ruined my body?
  
  

Don’t miss the continuation of this conversation where Heather and Joyce will focus on how to break free from the chains of subjugation and step into the full life God intends for you.

Connect with Compared to Who? here: https://www.improvebodyimage.com

Join the next 40-Day Journey here: https://www.improvebodyimage.com/40-day-challenge

Heather Creekmore [00:00:02]:

Where are all my people pleasers at? Yeah. I see you raising your hand there. Hey. This is Heather Creekmore. You're listening to the Compare To Who Podcast. And today, I'm talking to Joyce Campbell about a topic that is relevant to so many of us. Why do we say yes when we mean no? What is behind our people pleasing or as Joyce calls it, oh, this is a tough word.

Heather Creekmore [00:00:30]:

Subjugation. Yikes. Is that really what people pleasing is? Subjugation? Today, we're going there. We're looking at all the aspects of our people pleasing and yes, man or yes, woman tendencies. And we're gonna talk about what's behind that, where it came from, and how damaging it really is to us. So I'm glad you're here for the show today. Hey, we are finishing up an awesome 40 day journey. Group coaching has started.

Heather Creekmore [00:01:00]:

If you wanna be part of that, there may still be a space for you. But most importantly, I hope you have your calendar marked for January 7th when the next 40 day journey begins. You can go to improve body image.com and find out all about how to sign up and make sure you save your spot. I can only take 100 women in January, so save your spot for the January 40 day journey. Now let's get to today's awesome. Welcome to Compare To Who, the podcast to help you make peace with your body so you can favor God's rest and feel his love. If you're tired of fighting body image the world's way, Compare To Who is the show for you. You've likely heard lots of talk about loving your body, but my goal is different.

Heather Creekmore [00:01:40]:

Striving to fall in love with stretch marks and cellulite is a little silly to me. Instead, I want to encourage you and remind you with the truth of scripture that you are seen, you are known, and you are loved no matter what your size or shape. Here, the pressure is off. If you're looking for real talk, biblical encouragement, and regular reminders that God loves you and you're not alone, you've come to the right place. I hope you enjoy today's show, and, hey, tell a friend about it. Joyce Campbell, thanks so much for being on the Compare To Who Show today.

Joyce Campbell [00:02:15]:

Well, it's my pleasure, Heather. Thank you for inviting me.

Heather Creekmore [00:02:19]:

Well, you sent your book. I think you're sending it to my husband. He saw the title of it and was like, yeah, I think you would like this. And so it caught my attention immediately because you use a word that I've, I mean, I've heard of the word, of course.

Joyce Campbell [00:02:38]:

Right.

Heather Creekmore [00:02:39]:

But I've not heard it used a lot and the word is subjugation.

Heather Creekmore [00:02:45]:

What a powerful world. Right? Like, we talk about people pleasing and approval, but subjugation. Woah. That's like next level.

Joyce Campbell [00:02:58]:

Definitely. Subjugation in the clinical sense is one of the major ways of thinking and behaving that can damage a life. It's a very serious condition.

Heather Creekmore [00:03:14]:

Yeah. Well, in your book, I mean, you were a little bit, I guess, gentler in your titling with dare to say no. Right. But to think about, like, our inability to say no. Like, all those times we say yes when we meant to say no. Right? To think about Absolutely. To think about that as subjugation.

Joyce Campbell [00:03:37]:

And it really often begins when we're children. If our parents were very critical If we happen to grow up in an alcoholic home. And we heard over and over again, perhaps, things like, you are just not very smart. You will never amount to anything. You cannot think the way you should. You were a mistake.

Joyce Campbell [00:04:14]:

All of those things lay a foundation for the neuronal pathways in our brain to begin to be negative. And when we hear them over and over again, they become deeply embedded in our brain. And then we turn into doormats. We can. Absolutely. Because if we weren't meant to be born, for example, then why am I here? I'm just taking up space. I think they're right.

Joyce Campbell [00:04:55]:

Thoughts like that penetrate our thoughts and our distorted thinking.

Joyce Campbell [00:05:02]:

And yet, that's what's been programmed into the brain. And over time, we take it into the adult world. And for fear of abandonment or retaliation or rejection, we tend to say yes when we mean no. And then the self talk goes into these patterns that we automatically default to because they were already laid in our brain, embedded deeply. And so it's a very serious condition. It can actually destroy a life. The success that we were meant to be, the person that we were created to be may never come to life.

Heather Creekmore [00:06:01]:

Yeah. Does it have to be that harsh, Joyce? I mean, is it, because I coach women all the time, and I don't know that their parents actually even said anything, you know, that cruel. I know a lot of women have heard things that hurtful. And that's hard stuff. Absolutely. I feel like a lot of the women I talk to, it's more subtle than that.

Joyce Campbell [00:06:24]:

Well and if we were raised in Christian homes or maybe even just highly moral homes, there can be the unspoken message of you're to be a good little girl and say yes to whatever. And, so that's very much on the other end of the spectrum. Yeah. But it's just as powerful in many cases.

Heather Creekmore [00:06:55]:

Yeah. I think that one really hits home for me. And I think a lot of the clients that I talk to too, it's what does it mean to be a good girl, right, or to be good or successful? Right? And I think maybe subjugating slash people pleasing slash looking for approval. Because that's who I am. I am the good girl. I am the perfect one. I'm the one that does things well. And so I have to, if you want me to volunteer, yes, I will volunteer. Yes. You know?

Heather Creekmore [00:07:30]:

And I will make sure that, like, I look good when I'm doing it and the kids look good and that my house looks good if you come over. And it's a lot of pressure.

Joyce Campbell [00:07:41]:

Oh, tremendous performance pressure.

Joyce Campbell [00:07:48]:

There was another thought that I had about that, and I'm not coming up with a clinical name right now, but it's basically an unspoken statement or demand in the family that when we go out, we're going to look perfect. And we're going to sound perfect. We're gonna treat others perfectly and on and on and on. 

Heather Creekmore [00:08:15]:

I mean, it's the fight all the way to church. And then you get out of this. Game face is on, people. As you walk in. I mean, I've heard that story over and over again. Absolutely. They have lived that a little bit too.

Heather Creekmore [00:08:36]:

So what's the difference? I love how, you know, you kinda distinguish there's subjugation, there's people pleasing, and then there's also, like, self denial, which is a biblical concept. Right?

Joyce Campbell [00:08:48]:

Right.

Heather Creekmore [00:08:49]:

It shouldn't be that I'm always saying, you know, yes or no. Like, there's two sides of the spectrum. Right? Like, yes. I just wanna please me. I just wanna do what's good for me.

Joyce Campbell [00:08:59]:

Right. Still have it.

Heather Creekmore [00:09:00]:

You know what the difference is there?

Joyce Campbell [00:09:03]:

Well, saying no continually would be abuse of your no. And, basically, what it boils down to, Lord, what would you have me do in this situation? Before we give any knee jerk yeses. We need to pray and ask the Lord, what do you think? What is your will in this situation? And, also, when we're called upon to do something, lead a committee or just be part of a meeting, whatever, we need to be able to freely give it. If we have a problem with it, but we deny the problem, we're going to wind up resenting it and being angry. And anger is the major symptom of subjugation. So there's a lot involved. We need to ask what all would this call for, how many hours of involvement, how many times do I need to show up for X Y Z, so that we have an educated reference point to come from.

Joyce Campbell [00:10:26]:

No knee jerk guesses. They get us into trouble so many times.

Heather Creekmore [00:10:32]:

Well, I'm guessing, Joyce, that you've had some experience in this arena. Aside from just counseling people, most of the time, those of us who write books write books about things that we have walked through. Can you share just a little bit about, you know, why this was an important topic for you?

Joyce Campbell [00:10:50]:

Oh, wow. Well, when I was a child, I was sexually molested, not by anyone in my immediate family, but someone in the extended family. And, when I went back to grad school and in one of my internships, this subject came up. And I, until then, didn't know it was a mental health issue. And so I started studying it. And as I went into my private practice, I was astounded at all the people that have had the same issue and how it has damaged their lives. And, again, we're all on the subjugation spectrum somewhere.

Joyce Campbell [00:11:45]:

And it may be to one person, for example, a husband, or it may be to, we can even subjugate to our children. If, for example, both parents work and are extremely busy, then we can easily subjugate to a child and give them everything they want and always be building their ego, which unfortunately, most often leads to entitlement. And then you have a whole another

Heather Creekmore [00:12:24]:

You have a little narcissist.

Joyce Campbell [00:12:26]:

Exactly. Exactly. So it's, again, a very serious condition.

Heather Creekmore [00:12:34]:

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. So if you can kinda look back on childhood and say, yes. One of my parents was controlling. Is that kind of an immediate flag of, okay. Perhaps subjugation is something you deal with. What would you look for there?

Joyce Campbell [00:12:54]:

Absolutely. Even a critical parent. You know, I can remember again way back, when in elementary school, learning how to address an envelope. Okay. So the first one I did for homework and, again, there's a learning curve. Right? But, the address was a little bit too high up on the envelope, and I didn't get a, oh, good job. You know? You did this and this correctly.

Joyce Campbell [00:13:34]:

It was, where are you going to put the stamp? You've done this incorrectly. Even those small things leave a mark. See, I remember it to this day as clearly as if it were today. Right. So I'd loved it when my first grandchild, when he was old enough for us to decorate Christmas cookies together. He was so cute. He was doing one, and I have wrestled with perfection, myself. And so he was decorating, and I said, oh, that's good.

Joyce Campbell [00:14:18]:

What about if…? And he said, Nani, I'm learning! Good for you.

Heather Creekmore [00:14:29]:

Stop nani in her tracks, ma'am. That's right.

Joyce Campbell [00:14:32]:

It was great. Yeah. So absolutely.

Heather Creekmore [00:14:37]:

Yeah. Well, a lot of the women that listen to the show and that I work with are dealing with body image issues, and that's the theme of the show. And I hear the stories over and over again of women who, like your envelope addressing situation, can recount, you know, the time that mom told them, you know, that they needed to lose weight or the time mom put them on the scale and said that number was not right. Or the time that they, you know, zip up a dress that used to fit, and mom said, why doesn't that fit anymore? You, you know, you can't eat again until that fits. I mean, these kind of stories I think are pretty prevalent around these issues.

Heather Creekmore [00:15:14]:

Is that something you've observed for women with body image issues that you've seen in your practice?

Joyce Campbell [00:15:20]:

Yes. And the self talk that I've already mentioned, it's that running monologue that people with body image have trouble with.

Joyce Campbell [00:15:34]:

And until those pathways are removed and new ones are put in in terms of you know, if you think in terms of how the Lord how he sees us. I'm the apple of his eye. He loves me. He gave his life for me. So to replace those over time.

Joyce Campbell [00:16:02]:

If we're consistent, and in the book, it gives you steps to do that deliberately and systematically, then those negative pathways die because of disuse, which is such a cool thing. Yeah. I mean, it's the renewing of our mind. I believe that fits in that category. 

Heather Creekmore [00:16:26]:

Yeah. I love that. So I just wanna make sure that we're saying it clearly enough so people hearing can be encouraged. So, Joyce, you're saying it is possible to stop having those negative thoughts.

Joyce Campbell [00:16:38]:

Absolutely. And that's what the Lord wants for us. He wants freedom for us from those horrible tapes. Amen. Absolutely.

Heather Creekmore [00:16:49]:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You mentioned something that caught my attention a little bit ago, and that was anger. So when we first, my husband and I first ended up in counseling, it was by accident. I've told this story on the show before. We, he was in seminary, and we were participating in a kind of a leadership conference for pastors and their wives that were getting ready to get out of seminary and, you know, go into faith in a ministry.

Heather Creekmore [00:17:14]:

And part of the conference was 6 hours with a biblical counselor. And I was like, you know, Joyce, I could not wait because I was sure that my husband needed those 6 hours with a biblical counselor. And I was just so happy to finally get him in with a counselor. We get there and, apparently, I had some things to work on that I had no idea I had to work on. The counselor just kept redirecting the conversation to me every time, which was very confusing at first.

Joyce Campbell [00:17:48]:

I understand.

Heather Creekmore [00:17:50]:

And he asked me this question. And I mean, Joyce, I am sitting there with a big old smile on my face. I'm the happiest person you'll ever meet. Smile. Smile. Smile. And he's like, why are you so angry? And I was confused because I was like, what do you mean angry? I'm the happiest person you'll ever meet. I'm smiling!

Heather Creekmore [00:18:12]:

Like, I'm not, you know, I'm not in this anger posture. Like, I'm expressing to you my happiness. And it kind of changed my life because I realized over and you know, we were in and out of counseling for about 10 years, kind of realized that I was never allowed to be angry. That wasn't my role in the family.

Heather Creekmore [00:18:39]:

There actually wasn't enough space for me to be angry because that was kinda taken up by others. And it was life changing. What, like, when you you mentioned anger, what I mean, how does that connect to these issues?

Joyce Campbell [00:18:57]:

When we behave in a subjugated manner, we put everybody else's preferences, opinions, desires ahead of our own. And so we don't realize it, but we're accumulating anger. We are disrespecting our integrity. We don't act congruently with our thoughts. And so there can be a lot of self loathing. We can hate ourselves, disrespect ourselves, and others because we think they've put me in this situation. And if I don't say yes, I'm going to be rejected. And left out of the group or divorced or whatever the case might be.

Joyce Campbell [00:19:54]:

So the anger is, usually, you can see when I do an intake, when I get a basic idea of what they're in counseling for and blah blah blah, you can almost see a brittleness about them? They're so full of anger that it could break any moment, and that's what happens. We can maintain the subjugation for so long, and then something will trigger anger, and people might look at us as, who are you? You're always so compliant and ready to fill in for whomever or do this job for whomever. And, you know you're being disrespected. And it's clear that they don't respect you because of their behavior toward you. They can leave you out of the loop on important matters. They can exclude you from different social activities. The list can go on and on.

Heather Creekmore [00:21:16]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we can only take it for so long.

Joyce Campbell [00:21:21]:

That's right.

Heather Creekmore [00:21:22]:

And it takes a toll on our physical bodies as well.

Joyce Campbell [00:21:25]:

Oh, the mind body connection. Yeah. The anxiety, the depression cause all kinds of physical problems. Just migraines, irritable bowel syndrome, all kinds. Yeah. Heart palpitations, you name it.

Joyce Campbell [00:21:47]:

There can be a definite emotional and mental connection.

Heather Creekmore [00:21:54]:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been so helpful, Joyce. You know, I think it would be great if you would come back. So we can kinda talk about maybe the more hopeful side of this. Right? We've kinda talked about the ways this hurts us. Right.

Heather Creekmore [00:22:10]:

But there is a way out. There is a way through. Yes. So if you're listening or watching today and you have been the people pleaser, you're the you're the yes girl. You're the good girl. You're the perfectionist still trying to keep everything together, trying to get it all right. Sure you can do it all, carry it all, handle it all. We come back next time, and we're gonna talk about kinda how to break free from subjugation.

Joyce Campbell [00:22:35]:

Right. I would be happy to do that.

Heather Creekmore [00:22:37]:

Great. Great. Thanks so much. And thank you for watching or listening today. I hope some theme today has helped you stop comparing and start living. Bye bye.